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AloeVera

(2,903 posts)
125. The 2017 charter replaced the original one. It was a significant moderation.
Mon May 26, 2025, 12:50 AM
May 26

If Israel really wanted peace and a two-state solution, it would have welcomed Hamas' moderation as at least an opening to negotiations. The fact that it ignored it instead points to the hardening of hearts and minds within Israel to the TSS, which really only had a chance prior to the rise of Likud. I'll point out again that the Likud Charter was the first to claim "from the river to the sea" in so many words - it said within that geographical area there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

I still prefer Wiki or my own research to AI. Here are some tidbits on the 2017 charter that I find interesting.

Rejection of antisemitism
In contrast to the 1988 Hamas charter, the 2017 covenant separates the struggle against Zionism from general antisemitism, stating Hamas fights Zionists, not for their Jewishness but because of their "illegal" project:

Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, antisemitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage.[8]

Interviewed about this seeming change in Hamas's ideology, where in the old 1988 Hamas charter the enemy sometimes was labeled as "the Jews" but in the new 2017 charter the enemy is identified only as "Zionists", Khaled Mashal, in his last few days as highest leader of Hamas, declared in early May 2017: in the old charter indeed "the expression ["Jews"] was used", which he now criticized as "not (…) accurate" enough, emphasizing that Hamas' struggle "from the very start" was against "the Israeli occupier … not because they are Jews, (…) not because of their religion, but because (…) they have occupied our land, and attacked our people, and forced them out of their homes."[37]
.......

Under the heading "The position toward Occupation and Political Solutions" (paragraphs 18 to 23), the document describes the two-state solution, i.e. the creation of an independent Palestinian state in accordance with the 1967 borders with Jerusalem as its capital, as a "formula of national consensus", but without giving up the claim to the whole of Palestine, "from the river to the sea", and "without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity."[8] Rickard Lagervall (Jönköping University) viewed this as an "ambiguous formulation".[27] Tareq Baconi (Columbia University, European Council on Foreign Relations) gives two reasons why Hamas didn't explicitly recognize Israel:[35]
- The PLO unilaterally offered Israel recognition without extracting an Israeli commitment to recognize the State of Palestine, thus it weakened its own negotiating position, which Hamas wanted to avoid.[35]
- Secondly, Hamas, and Palestinian society at large, could be willing to recognize the fact Israel now exists, but they cannot legitimize Zionism or legitimize what happened to the Palestinians during Israel's creation.[35]


It really is a much, much more complicated and complex issue than "they want to kill all Jews" and "eradicate Israel". But getting all the nuances and complexities involves first trying to understand and dare I say it - empathize - with the Palestinians' perspective. Not everyone can do it, but some eventually will get there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter

Recommendations

3 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Somebody parse that shit. Iggo May 24 #1
Ethnic cleansing. Not a suprise by now. brush May 24 #4
Or genocide. I remember when Jews really hated that. Grins May 24 #21
Mass murder and / ethic clensing speak easy May 24 #28
Both terms are very similar... Violet_Crumble May 24 #50
Killing a lot of people? Hornedfrog2000 May 26 #126
"Semantics on this is a non-winning argument." speak easy May 26 #127
It's both. Netanyahu is a warmonger openly doing both that was once done to Jews. brush May 24 #43
quite possibly the majority of them STILL DO really hate it--- Jack Valentino May 25 #122
Why are you conflating all Jews with Israel? yardwork May 26 #137
I didn't say that! Grins May 28 #144
You just repeated it! yardwork May 28 #146
He needs to be shown what the United States used to do to genocidal terrorists. Initech May 24 #68
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Isaac Asimov Ping Tung May 24 #2
Crime against humanity JCMach1 May 24 #3
I am NOT saying that lightly. I am on the record here at DU JCMach1 May 24 #25
Israeli policy is very clear at this point fujiyamasan May 24 #71
Don't believe your lying ears. First we had to question our own eyes, now we can't trust our ears. Pisces May 24 #5
Every decent country in the world should shun Israel. sinkingfeeling May 24 #6
But I thought D_Master81 May 24 #7
Not everyone saw the hidden agenda...or pretended not to. AloeVera May 24 #56
Israel wasn't founded on ethnic cleansing. 21% of Israel's citizens are Palestinian citizens of Israel. lapucelle May 25 #77
Someone should read a book. AloeVera May 25 #82
Yes, even the babies, toddlers, elderly people, and all women must be murdered because they're Hamas. Lonestarblue May 25 #102
A good Israeli moved to Mexico Goddessartist May 25 #103
Those who decided not to vote, Maru Kitteh May 24 #8
You won't like this, or many here. AloeVera May 24 #58
So having Drumphf Elected was going to be a BETTER Result?! HELL NO.... electric_blue68 May 29 #148
And those who encouraged their constituents to NOT support Biden or Harris. Where is she now? Oopsie Daisy May 25 #87
This is right up there . . . Richard D May 24 #9
That Two State Solution? Problem solved. surfered May 24 #10
Absolutely! Richard D May 24 #11
Personally, I was hoping the two sides could reach a two state solution. surfered May 24 #13
It was possible . . . Richard D May 24 #16
It would not be too late if the Gulf States took over speak easy May 24 #30
War crime is an easy label to toss... Richard D May 24 #32
a "surrender by Hamas" speak easy May 24 #38
That's happening now Richard D May 24 #39
The problem is neither Hamas nor the various rightwing parties in Israel want that EdmondDantes_ May 24 #61
The only thing Israel is accomplishing right now, is killing more human beings. everyonematters May 24 #17
This is highly debatable Richard D May 24 #18
Ok, explain in as much detail as you can. What are they accomplishing right now in Gaza? everyonematters May 24 #23
That's encouraging Mossfern May 24 #45
I have seen it reported in reputable news sources. everyonematters May 24 #63
Which ones? Mossfern May 24 #70
Here is an article. everyonematters May 25 #85
I did a bit of resarch myself after my post to you Mossfern May 25 #90
There is a lot of hate and atrocities going on from both sides. everyonematters May 25 #92
Ah.... The "both sides" argument. Mossfern May 25 #94
The people in Gaza have no control over Hamas. The leaders of Hamas are not in Gaza. everyonematters May 25 #96
How do you propose Israel protect itself? Mossfern May 25 #97
They can start by not abusing the Palestinians with things like the settlements and pushing people out of their homes. everyonematters May 25 #98
I agree with you about the settlements, but Mossfern May 25 #107
Who wants to eradicate who? AloeVera May 25 #111
Seems like we have sources that don't match Mossfern May 25 #118
Wrong link. AloeVera May 25 #120
Here is the original Hamas Charter Mossfern May 25 #124
The 2017 charter replaced the original one. It was a significant moderation. AloeVera May 26 #125
I prefer the Hamas 2017 charter itself to your own research. Beastly Boy May 26 #129
Yes, it's very complicated Mossfern May 26 #136
In wiki the sources are linked. Then you can further research. AloeVera May 26 #139
Once the right wing and Netanyahu are neutralized Mossfern May 26 #141
"The "Hamas wants to kill all Jews" claim is just BS propaganda" EX500rider May 26 #140
Nuttyahoo's claudette May 29 #154
Ben Gurion SLClarke May 24 #34
I'm so old that I learned about a country called "Palestine" in grade school. OMGWTF May 24 #22
I belive that back before the partition Mossfern May 24 #46
Yes, they lived fairly peacefully with the Arab population AloeVera May 24 #57
14,000 not 44,000 in two days and not true in either case. PufPuf23 May 24 #54
Nobody can call it anything other than Ethnic Cleansing. Israeli apologists on this forum, notwithstanding. And, no, two artemisia1 May 24 #12
Agree 100% claudette May 29 #155
Impossible! Orrex May 24 #14
I agree, Butterflylady May 24 #20
I know, right? Oh the good 'ole days of shaming and ridicule... AloeVera May 24 #60
Yet Biden and Harris were the problem. LisaM May 24 #15
There is a no state solution now for Gaza, and those that helped enabled a Trump victory ensured that. W_HAMILTON May 24 #31
And once he's done with the people in Gaza Bettie May 24 #36
Yes, and Kshama Sawant, erstwhile Seattle City Council member, is part of that. LisaM May 24 #37
Saudis enid602 May 25 #76
I never hear bdamomma May 25 #116
But julmur May 24 #19
David vs Goliath, and Goliath is not backing down! jalan48 May 24 #24
Now that's textbook genocide Walleye May 24 #26
... and in The End... Mike Nelson May 24 #27
We warned people of this. W_HAMILTON May 24 #29
Translation: Chasstev365 May 24 #33
So, NOW can we call it Bettie May 24 #35
Israeli settlers attacked a village near Bethlehem just hours ago, killing livestock belonging to Palestinians red dog 1 May 24 #40
Well, guess the West Bank Bettie May 24 #41
It's been happening since Oct 7th. AloeVera May 24 #64
It's been happening there for years Bettie May 24 #69
This is a decision that was made about 10 minutes after the terror attack (if not before), by the way Takket May 24 #42
This comes as no surprise. For reference, and if anyone is interested in doing really deep diving Nanjeanne May 24 #44
I hope people do go to their site. Eye-opening. AloeVera May 24 #65
Would be worthwhile. But don't expect it. Nanjeanne May 24 #67
I went to the website, ProPublica, and then to (oh dear) SourceWatch. lapucelle May 25 #78
Influence Watch is run by a conservative think tank. Violet_Crumble May 25 #80
Propublica names Simone Zimmermann as their executive director, but she's nowhere to be found lapucelle May 25 #110
This message was self-deleted by its author Violet_Crumble May 25 #81
Sums it up nicely and accurately. Thanks, I'm saving this. AloeVera May 25 #83
If by "sums it up nicely" you mean more agenda-driven than fact-based, then yes. lapucelle May 25 #109
That's nice. Did you read many of the articles? Did you read about the orgs that have given them awards? Nanjeanne May 25 #84
No. I researched the funding, board, and executive director. lapucelle May 25 #108
Maybe they don't list the US Director on their site. *shrug* Nanjeanne May 25 #112
Well, given her history, keeping her name on the downlow seems smart. lapucelle May 25 #114
Less time than Max Berger, co-founder of IfNotNow who served as aide to Warren's presidential campaign Nanjeanne May 25 #115
Yes, well, it's always revealing when politicians are forced bow to pressure lapucelle May 26 #128
Oh she was vetted. Pressure came from outside since the FB post really was long ago and what many of us Nanjeanne May 26 #130
Ambitious politicians bow to pressure all the time. It's the expedient thing to do. N/T lapucelle May 26 #134
Happy to see you did not give up Israeli May 29 #150
Yitzak Rabin, Yasser Arafat and the Oslo Accords Andy Canuck May 24 #47
I Haven't Forgotten that! electric_blue68 May 29 #149
Absolutely correct Israeli May 29 #151
Ethnic cleansing is officially an aim of this war. David__77 May 24 #48
Damn it all to hell.. where are these people supposed to go?? Peacetrain May 24 #49
What's certain is that they shouldn't have to leave their own country. David__77 May 24 #66
" in the most crowded spot on earth" Not really, that would be Macau followed by Monaco EX500rider May 26 #142
It's the most crowded concentration camp in the world. vanessa_ca May 28 #145
Never seen a "concentration camp" with restaurants, hospitals, stores, etc EX500rider May 28 #147
Ummmmm . . . . . wasn't that the goal of Hamas? no_hypocrisy May 24 #51
Your assertion is that Israel is no better than a vile terrorist regime? Orrex May 24 #53
That's your conclusion. I was pointing out the goals are similar, if not the same. no_hypocrisy May 25 #75
It's the conclusion that follows logically from what you wrote Orrex May 25 #86
Hatred on both sides cancel each other out. no_hypocrisy May 25 #88
Ah yes. Deuteronomy. Orrex May 25 #89
He will claudette May 24 #52
Yeeee,.... Haaaaaa ! magicarpet May 24 #55
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. Howard Zinn Ping Tung May 24 #59
Don't know about you, but this sounds like genocide to me. Ethnic cleansing at a minimum. Jit423 May 24 #62
Uh huh. "Never again," apparently didn't mean "never." Scrivener7 May 25 #79
Follow the links: he doesn't say that Bad Thoughts May 24 #72
He said the depopulation plan must be implemented. He's a racist and ethnic cleansing is officially a war aim. David__77 May 25 #73
Quote Netanyahu, please! Bad Thoughts May 25 #74
Here you go David__77 May 25 #93
Fail! No quote that directly addresses the issue Bad Thoughts May 25 #100
"Pushing" is another word for GENOCIDE.... Jack Valentino May 25 #123
In this press confrence he said "Trump's "revolutionary" plan to relocate Gaza's civilians Autumn May 25 #95
Trump walked back the resettlement requirement Bad Thoughts May 25 #99
Show me where he didn't say it. As of May 22 he said Trump is still commited to it. Autumn May 25 #104
Watch here Bad Thoughts May 25 #105
May 22 Netanyahoo said Trump was still committed to the plan Autumn May 25 #106
"Show me where he didn't say it" How do you show someone not saying something exactly? EX500rider May 26 #143
Oh, so it ISN't about the Hamas attack after all LearnedHand May 25 #91
He isn't doing this by himself. Klarkashton May 25 #101
Bibi bdamomma May 25 #113
The Andrew Jackson of Israel, except much worse n/t AntiFascist May 25 #117
Netanyahu I_UndergroundPanther May 25 #119
"Emptying" provinces of a specific ethnic group. Hmm. Wasn't that a thing in Europe in the 1930"s? lees1975 May 25 #121
Sounds like the Nazis trying to get all the Jews out of Germany? kentuck May 26 #131
He's bdamomma May 26 #132
New nickname - Big Murderer. Little Murderer, his old nickname, no longer fits. lark May 26 #133
Straight genocide uponit7771 May 26 #135
Anger at Israel has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. Safe as Milk May 26 #138
Is Netanyahu trying to burn up all of the world's sentiment for the state of Israel? SalamanderSleeps May 29 #152
Of course claudette May 29 #153
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